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	<title>Comments on: Revived Net Neutrality bill cripples Internet for real-time applications</title>
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	<description>Because technology isn&#039;t just for geeks</description>
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		<title>By: Technology for Mortals &#187; Why BitTorrent causes so much jitter (high ping) and how to fix it</title>
		<link>http://www.formortals.com/revived-net-neutrality-bill-cripples-internet-for-real-time-applications/comment-page-1/#comment-1628</link>
		<dc:creator>Technology for Mortals &#187; Why BitTorrent causes so much jitter (high ping) and how to fix it</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Jul 2009 00:55:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.formortals.com/?p=34#comment-1628</guid>
		<description>[...] The difference in ping time is caused by the fact that HTTP is a single source of data whereas BitTorrent is about 20 sources of data. Incoming data from from multiple sources via the fast core of the Internet can sometimes clump closely together when multiple sources happen to transmit data around the same time. So in the period of 20 ms (the interval between typical VoIP packets), up to 200 max-size 1472 BYTE packets can occasionally build up in the DSLAM transmit queue (blue square in illustration above labeled as &#8220;download queue&#8221;) causing my ping requests to time out above the 1 second mark. But on average, we get around 23 of these packets causing sitting in the DSLAM transmit queue causing an average increase in ping of 117 ms. When there is a single transmitter, it might burst and clump packets close together but it won&#8217;t be at the level of 20 transmitters.With HTTP causing 76 ms of downstream delay, that means 15 of these 1472-BYTE packets are sitting in the DSLAM transmit queue causing a less extreme increase in ping. This is still problematic for VoIP communications and it can certainly ruin online gaming. So despite the fact that&#160;there is plenty of remaining bandwidth for my VoIP or online gaming traffic, it&#8217;s the non-uniformity of the incoming Internet traffic that causes my VoIP phone calls and games to perform badly. Unfortunately since this is the downstream we&#8217;re talking about, the consumer can&#8217;t do much about it on their own end of the pipe because the delay is at the DSLAM which belongs to the ISP.The only way to fix this problem is for the ISP to implement intelligent packet scheduling and application prioritization at the DSLAM to re-order those VoIP or gaming packets to the front of the transmit queue. With packet prioritization (generally referred to as QoS), your family member, your roommate, or your own video downloads won&#8217;t need to be stopped and they won&#8217;t interfere with your VoIP or gaming applications which makes everyone happy. Unfortunately, these types of QoS services may never see the light of day if poorly conceived Net Neutrality legislation gets passed that&#160;ban the sale of packet prioritization.&#160; [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] The difference in ping time is caused by the fact that HTTP is a single source of data whereas BitTorrent is about 20 sources of data. Incoming data from from multiple sources via the fast core of the Internet can sometimes clump closely together when multiple sources happen to transmit data around the same time. So in the period of 20 ms (the interval between typical VoIP packets), up to 200 max-size 1472 BYTE packets can occasionally build up in the DSLAM transmit queue (blue square in illustration above labeled as &#8220;download queue&#8221;) causing my ping requests to time out above the 1 second mark. But on average, we get around 23 of these packets causing sitting in the DSLAM transmit queue causing an average increase in ping of 117 ms. When there is a single transmitter, it might burst and clump packets close together but it won&#8217;t be at the level of 20 transmitters.With HTTP causing 76 ms of downstream delay, that means 15 of these 1472-BYTE packets are sitting in the DSLAM transmit queue causing a less extreme increase in ping. This is still problematic for VoIP communications and it can certainly ruin online gaming. So despite the fact that&nbsp;there is plenty of remaining bandwidth for my VoIP or online gaming traffic, it&#8217;s the non-uniformity of the incoming Internet traffic that causes my VoIP phone calls and games to perform badly. Unfortunately since this is the downstream we&#8217;re talking about, the consumer can&#8217;t do much about it on their own end of the pipe because the delay is at the DSLAM which belongs to the ISP.The only way to fix this problem is for the ISP to implement intelligent packet scheduling and application prioritization at the DSLAM to re-order those VoIP or gaming packets to the front of the transmit queue. With packet prioritization (generally referred to as QoS), your family member, your roommate, or your own video downloads won&#8217;t need to be stopped and they won&#8217;t interfere with your VoIP or gaming applications which makes everyone happy. Unfortunately, these types of QoS services may never see the light of day if poorly conceived Net Neutrality legislation gets passed that&nbsp;ban the sale of packet prioritization.&nbsp; [...]</p>
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		<title>By: George Ou</title>
		<link>http://www.formortals.com/revived-net-neutrality-bill-cripples-internet-for-real-time-applications/comment-page-1/#comment-606</link>
		<dc:creator>George Ou</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Jun 2008 01:17:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.formortals.com/?p=34#comment-606</guid>
		<description>Are you doing selective reading?  No, I did not misunderstand it.  I want to be able to tell my ISP to prioritize only my IPTV stream when I order my IPTV service because I want it to work.  I might want my ISP to only prioritize VoIP streams coming from Vonage or Lingo because I am customers of those services or just prioritize VoIP streams from anywhere.  I might want my ISP to prioritize video on demand from Apple over Microsoft or vice versa.  That is NOT discrimination, that&#039;s consumer choice and they have a right to purchase this service if they want to.  The Government shouldn&#039;t step in and say you can&#039;t buy this service and that this service has to be bundled in to the price of everyone&#039;s broadband service.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Now if Apple paid AT&amp;T money to block Microsoft video downloads or vice versa, that certainly should be illegal and already is illegal under anti-trust law.  But if Apple merely paid AT&amp;T for caching services for faster and more reliable delivery, that&#039;s normal CDN (caching services) and there&#039;s nothing strange or illegal about that.  Any content distributor on a large scale pretty much has to buy CDN to get their content delivered anyways.  That is how the Internet works today.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Are you doing selective reading?  No, I did not misunderstand it.  I want to be able to tell my ISP to prioritize only my IPTV stream when I order my IPTV service because I want it to work.  I might want my ISP to only prioritize VoIP streams coming from Vonage or Lingo because I am customers of those services or just prioritize VoIP streams from anywhere.  I might want my ISP to prioritize video on demand from Apple over Microsoft or vice versa.  That is NOT discrimination, that&#8217;s consumer choice and they have a right to purchase this service if they want to.  The Government shouldn&#8217;t step in and say you can&#8217;t buy this service and that this service has to be bundled in to the price of everyone&#8217;s broadband service.</p>
<p>Now if Apple paid AT&amp;T money to block Microsoft video downloads or vice versa, that certainly should be illegal and already is illegal under anti-trust law.  But if Apple merely paid AT&amp;T for caching services for faster and more reliable delivery, that&#8217;s normal CDN (caching services) and there&#8217;s nothing strange or illegal about that.  Any content distributor on a large scale pretty much has to buy CDN to get their content delivered anyways.  That is how the Internet works today.</p>
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		<title>By: newerakb</title>
		<link>http://www.formortals.com/revived-net-neutrality-bill-cripples-internet-for-real-time-applications/comment-page-1/#comment-603</link>
		<dc:creator>newerakb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Jun 2008 01:07:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.formortals.com/?p=34#comment-603</guid>
		<description>From what I&#039;ve read on NN legislation, it applies more to preventing companies from paying to have their data load faster than their competitors data, and has no affect on customer service or pricing to the consumer. The text from the bill at the top even says that if you prioritize certain data, all data of that type must be prioritized. This wouldn&#039;t prevent Comcast from having tiered pricing for consumers. Nor would it prevent them from prioritizing VoIP packets. Rather, it would prevent them from prioritizing Skype over Skype&#039;s competitors, as THAT would be discrimination.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;This whole article seems to misunderstand the intent of NN.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>From what I&#8217;ve read on NN legislation, it applies more to preventing companies from paying to have their data load faster than their competitors data, and has no affect on customer service or pricing to the consumer. The text from the bill at the top even says that if you prioritize certain data, all data of that type must be prioritized. This wouldn&#8217;t prevent Comcast from having tiered pricing for consumers. Nor would it prevent them from prioritizing VoIP packets. Rather, it would prevent them from prioritizing Skype over Skype&#8217;s competitors, as THAT would be discrimination.</p>
<p>This whole article seems to misunderstand the intent of NN.</p>
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		<title>By: George Ou</title>
		<link>http://www.formortals.com/revived-net-neutrality-bill-cripples-internet-for-real-time-applications/comment-page-1/#comment-571</link>
		<dc:creator>George Ou</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Jun 2008 14:18:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.formortals.com/?p=34#comment-571</guid>
		<description>One more thing Wowbagger, a lot of these &quot;experts&quot; talk about ATM QoS without realizing that it doesn&#039;t apply to the IP world.  While ATM was designed with great QoS technology, ATM QoS works within the context of ATM and it does not work in the context of running IP over ATM. Multiple ATM cells make up a single IP packet and you can&#039;t just go reshuffling ATM packets to see an effect on IP flows. You need to intelligently shuffle the IP packets either at the network end or you try to engineer the application to spit out an even flow of periodic traffic.  So it&#039;s foolish for these self-proclaimed experts like Dre to say that you simply need to switch to ATM technology because it doesn&#039;t even apply here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One more thing Wowbagger, a lot of these &#8220;experts&#8221; talk about ATM QoS without realizing that it doesn&#8217;t apply to the IP world.  While ATM was designed with great QoS technology, ATM QoS works within the context of ATM and it does not work in the context of running IP over ATM. Multiple ATM cells make up a single IP packet and you can&#8217;t just go reshuffling ATM packets to see an effect on IP flows. You need to intelligently shuffle the IP packets either at the network end or you try to engineer the application to spit out an even flow of periodic traffic.  So it&#8217;s foolish for these self-proclaimed experts like Dre to say that you simply need to switch to ATM technology because it doesn&#8217;t even apply here.</p>
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		<title>By: Wowbagger</title>
		<link>http://www.formortals.com/revived-net-neutrality-bill-cripples-internet-for-real-time-applications/comment-page-1/#comment-537</link>
		<dc:creator>Wowbagger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Jun 2008 14:07:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.formortals.com/?p=34#comment-537</guid>
		<description>You&#039;ve shed a little bit of light on an often-intimidating world for me.  Thank you very much, sir.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;ve shed a little bit of light on an often-intimidating world for me.  Thank you very much, sir.</p>
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		<title>By: George Ou</title>
		<link>http://www.formortals.com/revived-net-neutrality-bill-cripples-internet-for-real-time-applications/comment-page-1/#comment-509</link>
		<dc:creator>George Ou</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Jun 2008 14:33:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.formortals.com/?p=34#comment-509</guid>
		<description>Each router adds roughly 1ms to the speed-of-light propagation delay. The layer 2 stuff (switches, DSLAMS, modems, etc) because they&#039;re working on a lower layer that doesn&#039;t need to deal with routing so they&#039;re fundamentally faster. But again, we&#039;re talking roughly 1ms delay which is insignificant. You might be able to lower that a little with faster ASIC hardware but do you honestly believe it will go to zero?&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Even if it&#039;s 15 routers and you can slash that to 8 ms delay (I doubt that much), what&#039;s the point of gaining 7ms? It&#039;s far less than the 20ms or 30ms of packetization delay you get in the creation of that VoIP or gaming packet. The real problem that you need to tackle is that transmit queue in the DSLAM that is opposite your DSL modem that might be 200 packets deep with up to a 1000 ms delay or more typically 200 ms delay.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;So *CAN* you reduce software latency? Sure. Is it even remotely worth implementing? Not even close.  The fact of the matter is; any function that is computationally expensive on existing commercial Cisco routers are already done with ASICs and you&#039;d be hard pressed to lower the latency crossing a router any more than it already is.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Is the &quot;problem&quot; worthy of a civil class action lawsuit? That&#039;s like saying that you get to sue Intel for selling you a $50 CPU that can&#039;t encode 1080P H.264 in real-time.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;As for Snowe-Dorgan from 2006, here is the exact language.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Snowe-Dorgan proposal:&lt;br&gt;(5) only prioritize content, applications, or services accessed by a user that is made available via the Internet within the network of such broadband service provider based on the type of content, applications, or services and the level of service purchased by the user, without charge for such prioritization;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;So again, it says nothing about &quot;special QoS deals&quot;; it just flat out bans the sale of QoS. So if you as the consumer want to buy a service where you get to tell your ISP that you want to prioritize Lingo (which I am a customer of), Snowe-Dorgan 2006 and Markey-2006 would prohibit you from doing so.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Each router adds roughly 1ms to the speed-of-light propagation delay. The layer 2 stuff (switches, DSLAMS, modems, etc) because they&#8217;re working on a lower layer that doesn&#8217;t need to deal with routing so they&#8217;re fundamentally faster. But again, we&#8217;re talking roughly 1ms delay which is insignificant. You might be able to lower that a little with faster ASIC hardware but do you honestly believe it will go to zero?</p>
<p>Even if it&#8217;s 15 routers and you can slash that to 8 ms delay (I doubt that much), what&#8217;s the point of gaining 7ms? It&#8217;s far less than the 20ms or 30ms of packetization delay you get in the creation of that VoIP or gaming packet. The real problem that you need to tackle is that transmit queue in the DSLAM that is opposite your DSL modem that might be 200 packets deep with up to a 1000 ms delay or more typically 200 ms delay.</p>
<p>So *CAN* you reduce software latency? Sure. Is it even remotely worth implementing? Not even close.  The fact of the matter is; any function that is computationally expensive on existing commercial Cisco routers are already done with ASICs and you&#8217;d be hard pressed to lower the latency crossing a router any more than it already is.</p>
<p>Is the &quot;problem&quot; worthy of a civil class action lawsuit? That&#8217;s like saying that you get to sue Intel for selling you a $50 CPU that can&#8217;t encode 1080P H.264 in real-time.</p>
<p>As for Snowe-Dorgan from 2006, here is the exact language.</p>
<p>Snowe-Dorgan proposal:<br />(5) only prioritize content, applications, or services accessed by a user that is made available via the Internet within the network of such broadband service provider based on the type of content, applications, or services and the level of service purchased by the user, without charge for such prioritization;</p>
<p>So again, it says nothing about &quot;special QoS deals&quot;; it just flat out bans the sale of QoS. So if you as the consumer want to buy a service where you get to tell your ISP that you want to prioritize Lingo (which I am a customer of), Snowe-Dorgan 2006 and Markey-2006 would prohibit you from doing so.</p>
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		<title>By: Wowbagger</title>
		<link>http://www.formortals.com/revived-net-neutrality-bill-cripples-internet-for-real-time-applications/comment-page-1/#comment-508</link>
		<dc:creator>Wowbagger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Jun 2008 06:17:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.formortals.com/?p=34#comment-508</guid>
		<description>I know, this is twenty days after the fact, but I just spent an hour trying to follow the above discussion (heavily leaning on Wikipedia) and, if Mr Ou is still reading, I was wondering if you might answer a couple questions for me, a confused CS student (never built a network in my life, barely know the packet vs. datagram distinction, get most of my tech knowledge from Slashdot... so, basically, no credentials to speak of):&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;If I read this conversation right, if you have an uncongested coast-to-coast link in the USA with, say, ten hops in the link, you will likely have ping around 80 ms and one-way delay of half that, or 40 ms.  (This is using the figures you and dre argued over above, but I checked it with traceroute during non-peak hours and it seems to be about right, maybe a little low.)  Am I correct in thinking that that 40 ms OWD is because of:&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;-20 ms speed-of-light delay&lt;br&gt;-insignificant (&lt;1 ms in most scenarios) router delay (combining the delays from all ten hops)&lt;br&gt;-and 20+ ms packetization/depacketization delay?&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;If that&#039;s correct, then *could* packetization be sped up by making changes at the software level, or is TCP (which I believe is the upper layer protocol we&#039;d be using here) pretty much going to packetize at the same speed (thus giving you the same latency) no matter how you send it data?&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Lastly, my understanding of the most recent net neutrality legislation that I&#039;ve looked at (Snowe-Dorgen 2007) was that it would only ban special QoS deals between networks and specific content providers--the law would prevent a scenario in which, say, Lingo data would have a higher priority than all other VoIP traffic because Lingo would have coughed up the big bucks to the ISP&#039;s and Vonage wouldn&#039;t have--while still allowing protocol-based QoS.  Am I missing something here?  Did the 2008 proposed act change this?  If not, how does a ban on that very specific type of QoS impact the entirely reasonable protocol-based packet prioritization you proposed in this article?&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I know those questions probably have quite a few errors just in the asking.  Sorry.  Thanks for any answer you may (or may not) give.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;-W.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I know, this is twenty days after the fact, but I just spent an hour trying to follow the above discussion (heavily leaning on Wikipedia) and, if Mr Ou is still reading, I was wondering if you might answer a couple questions for me, a confused CS student (never built a network in my life, barely know the packet vs. datagram distinction, get most of my tech knowledge from Slashdot&#8230; so, basically, no credentials to speak of):</p>
<p>If I read this conversation right, if you have an uncongested coast-to-coast link in the USA with, say, ten hops in the link, you will likely have ping around 80 ms and one-way delay of half that, or 40 ms.  (This is using the figures you and dre argued over above, but I checked it with traceroute during non-peak hours and it seems to be about right, maybe a little low.)  Am I correct in thinking that that 40 ms OWD is because of:</p>
<p>-20 ms speed-of-light delay<br />-insignificant (&lt;1 ms in most scenarios) router delay (combining the delays from all ten hops)<br />-and 20+ ms packetization/depacketization delay?</p>
<p>If that&#8217;s correct, then *could* packetization be sped up by making changes at the software level, or is TCP (which I believe is the upper layer protocol we&#8217;d be using here) pretty much going to packetize at the same speed (thus giving you the same latency) no matter how you send it data?</p>
<p>Lastly, my understanding of the most recent net neutrality legislation that I&#8217;ve looked at (Snowe-Dorgen 2007) was that it would only ban special QoS deals between networks and specific content providers&#8211;the law would prevent a scenario in which, say, Lingo data would have a higher priority than all other VoIP traffic because Lingo would have coughed up the big bucks to the ISP&#8217;s and Vonage wouldn&#8217;t have&#8211;while still allowing protocol-based QoS.  Am I missing something here?  Did the 2008 proposed act change this?  If not, how does a ban on that very specific type of QoS impact the entirely reasonable protocol-based packet prioritization you proposed in this article?</p>
<p>I know those questions probably have quite a few errors just in the asking.  Sorry.  Thanks for any answer you may (or may not) give.</p>
<p>-W.</p>
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		<title>By: George Ou</title>
		<link>http://www.formortals.com/revived-net-neutrality-bill-cripples-internet-for-real-time-applications/comment-page-1/#comment-345</link>
		<dc:creator>George Ou</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 May 2008 04:27:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.formortals.com/?p=34#comment-345</guid>
		<description>Answer the following specific questions&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;1. How does 1ms router latency compare to 20ms packetization latency or 300ms congestion-induced latency?  And how does that 1ms of latency in the router negate the need to deal with congestion-induced latency using packet scheculing prioritization technology?  How does that justify a lawsuit against every router manufacturer as you suggest?&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;2. How do you explain the fact that you do not understand that QoS works regardless of protocol or encryption usage?&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Don&#039;t post another comment until you&#039;ve answered these questions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Answer the following specific questions</p>
<p>1. How does 1ms router latency compare to 20ms packetization latency or 300ms congestion-induced latency?  And how does that 1ms of latency in the router negate the need to deal with congestion-induced latency using packet scheculing prioritization technology?  How does that justify a lawsuit against every router manufacturer as you suggest?</p>
<p>2. How do you explain the fact that you do not understand that QoS works regardless of protocol or encryption usage?</p>
<p>Don&#8217;t post another comment until you&#8217;ve answered these questions.</p>
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		<title>By: George Ou</title>
		<link>http://www.formortals.com/revived-net-neutrality-bill-cripples-internet-for-real-time-applications/comment-page-1/#comment-349</link>
		<dc:creator>George Ou</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 May 2008 04:19:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.formortals.com/?p=34#comment-349</guid>
		<description>Don&#039;t need people like you around here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Don&#8217;t need people like you around here.</p>
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		<title>By: dre</title>
		<link>http://www.formortals.com/revived-net-neutrality-bill-cripples-internet-for-real-time-applications/comment-page-1/#comment-348</link>
		<dc:creator>dre</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 May 2008 02:43:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.formortals.com/?p=34#comment-348</guid>
		<description>No one wonders why you left ZDNet after reading this thread...&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I&#039;m sure that you couldn&#039;t hang with Nate McFeters or Larry Dignan.  How do you feel about your replacement, Dancho Danchev?  I bet that&#039;s got to hurt.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Wow... since you&#039;re not really a journalist anymore... I have to wonder... what kind of &quot;expert&quot; are you?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No one wonders why you left ZDNet after reading this thread&#8230;</p>
<p>I&#8217;m sure that you couldn&#8217;t hang with Nate McFeters or Larry Dignan.  How do you feel about your replacement, Dancho Danchev?  I bet that&#8217;s got to hurt.</p>
<p>Wow&#8230; since you&#8217;re not really a journalist anymore&#8230; I have to wonder&#8230; what kind of &quot;expert&quot; are you?</p>
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